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MACARTHUR: But a civil issue -- sure, they have a right to make a relationship, if they want.

KING: Chad, why do you want to married? Why do you want the right to be married?

CHAD ALLEN, ACTOR/PRODUCER/ACTIVIST "OUTED" BY TABLOIDS IN '96: You know, I'll be honest with you. If you'd asked me this question a year ago, I wouldn't have cared. I would have said, Why would I want to get involved with that institution? Why would I want to have -- ultimately, wind up having my things decided by a court and where they go. And then I fell in love a year ago. And he's on the road right now, and when I wake up in the morning, I miss him a lot. I miss him right in my belly. And for the first time in my life, I started thinking about this institution of marriage and what my parents talked about, about building a life with somebody else. And when I woke up today, the president told me that I couldn't have that. The president said he would -- they turned the Constitution around and make it a document of exclusion and tell me that I'm a second-class citizen. That's not OK.

KING: What's wrong with a civil union, where a state says you're entitled to all of the benefits of marriage, you're just not married?

ALLEN: The bottom line on that for me is we had that debate in this country. We already decided, as a country, that separate but equal was not good enough for us. If that's the case, then it's time that we all stood up and again proclaimed that separate but equal is not good enough for us. And in this case, thank you very much. I appreciate that you're finally going to tell me that it's OK, I can have those same legal benefits that you've allowed everybody else who wants to declare their love. But then you want to tell me that I'm second class because I can't call it marriage? That's not good enough for me.

KING: Congresswoman Musgrave, what do you have against Chad Allen expressing that love with is partner in marriage?

REP. MARILYN MUSGRAVE (R-CO), INTRODUCED FED. MARRIAGE AMENDMENT: I actually have no opinion on that. What I do have an opinion on is whether or not in this country we will allow activist judges to redefine marriage. You know, Chad needs to be aware that the deliberative process, the legislative process has been available all along for people to change laws. But they've not chosen to go that way, but rather to go through the judicial branch, activist judges, to get their way. And the American people should not be forced...

KING: I see. But...

MUSGRAVE: ... to recognize gay marriage by federal judges or state judges.

KING: But Congresswoman, hasn't it been true in the past -- there's only two ways to change a law, legislatively or breaking it and then having a judge deciding or a constitutional Supreme Court deciding? Martin Luther King broke many laws on the way to justice. So what is open to someone other than to challenge a law, if the legislature doesn't change it, than to challenge it legally?

MUSGRAVE: Well, what is open to them is the legislative deliberative process. If we're ever to change the definition of marriage in this country, it should be done by the American people and their elected representatives. And they've had every opportunity to go that route but have chosen not to do that because the American people overwhelmingly support the traditional definition of marriage...

KING: But states...

MUSGRAVE: ... a union between one man and one woman.

KING: States in the South historically supported a separation of color in the South, and Martin Luther King challenged that. Many states held to it. A black couldn't marry a white in the Southern states. This is 20 years ago that couldn't happen.

MUSGRAVE: What we're talking about...

KING: The legislature didn't change it.

MUSGRAVE: ... here, Larry, is the definition of marriage, changing the definition of marriage. And again, if that's to be done, it should be done by the American people and their elected representatives.

KING: OK. Mayor, what's wrong with that? What's wrong with letting the people decide?

NEWSOM: Yes, Larry, I feel, I must say, when I'm listening to the congresswoman -- and I say this with respect -- that if we wait for popularity in the polls and the people, we still would be talking about interracial marriages in this country. The year I was born, finally, it was some activist judges in Loving versus the State of Virginia that finally recognized that 16 states were being discriminatory in not affording the rights of blacks to marry whites, whites to marry Asians, et cetera. The point is, there's certain principles you stand on and those principles of non-discrimination.

I've got to say, as well, I think we're affirming family. And I would challenge anyone that doesn't think that gay couples are an extention of the fabric of family to come to City Hall and see young kids, to see mothers and fathers with their sons and daughters that are engaging in bonds and extending themselves to loving relationships and affirming marriage. And as I said, Larry, I got married two years ago. I have certain rights and privileges that, until we took action here in San Francisco, were denied literally millions of people across this country. That is fundamentally flawed, and I would argue that's not American.

KING: Let me get a break, and we'll come back...

MUSGRAVE: It might be interesting...

KING: I'll have Marilyn respond...

MUSGRAVE: OK.

KING: ... and John MacArthur. We'll get into it. We've got a full hour. We'll also be including your phone calls. Don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: After more than two centuries of American jurisprudence and millennia of human experience, a few judges and local authorities are presuming to change the most fundamental institution of civilization. Their actions have created confusion on an issue that requires clarity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP - MAY 5, 2002)

KING: When did you know that you liked the same sex?

[AUDIO FILE]  ROSIE O'DONNELL, ACTRESS/TALK SHOW HOST: Well, I was a non- sexually active teenager, in any capacity. You know, I was very popular in high school. I was the homecoming queen. I was senior class president. You know, I was not at all thinking of dating in any way, shape or form. And it wasn't as though I thought, Wow, I might be gay. I'd better, you know, try to squelch this and -- I just didn't even have a consciousness of it. And then when I got my license, I believe I was 18, I was driving in the car and I was thinking, You know what? I think I'm gay.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Congresswoman Musgrave, you wanted to respond to the mayor?

MUSGRAVE: Well, I just wanted to say it's amazing to me that the mayor can defy the law and talk about it as though it were a noble thing. What if mayors around the nation just openly defied the law? What kind of a country would we have? I believe when you're an elected official, you should have respect for the law. And the people of California have had a ballot initiative. The definition of marriage in California is a union between one man and one woman.

KING: Mayor?

NEWSOM: Well, Congresswoman, we are in the courts now discussing that point. We're discussing the constitutionality of that effort. The system works quite well. There's nothing to fear, Congresswoman. The fact is, when we took this action to uphold the constitution of the state of California, where clearly, by the very nature of the fact that people feel that they need to amend the constitution, we took appropriate acts to bear full faith and allegiance by the non- discriminatory nature of the language. We feel we're doing the right thing.

KING: You certainly agree...
 
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